Вопрос о берегах

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  • 1

#1 Кхеминда » 10.12.2015, 12:01

Вот к примеру

«Ничем не владеющий, ничего не желающий в этом мире желания,
Совершенный брахмана переплывёт поток,
Преодолеет его стремительность; неколеблемый, успокоенный,
Он причалит к иному берегу;

СНП 5.4

Тот монах покидает оба берега,
Как змея свою отжившую кожу.

СНП 1.1

А теперь внимание вопрос на иной берег или все таки покинуть оба берега необходимо?
Кхеминда

#2 Киттисаро-ушёл » 10.12.2015, 12:12

Возможно имеется в виду ниббана и париниббана.
Моя страница в фейсбуке - facebook.com/ivan.kittisaro
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#3 Топпер » 10.12.2015, 12:13

Это о разных реках речь.
В первом случае берега это сансара и Ниббана. И тут от одного берега нужно переплыть к другому.

во втором случае, если мне память не изменяет, речь об этой жизни и следующей. И в этом смысле нужно покинуть оба берега: т.е. уйти от этой, но не придти к новому существованию.
Топпер

#4 amv » 10.12.2015, 12:13

Может быть так:
ниббана при жизни - это другой берег, пребывание в благих состояниях, отсутствие неблагих, а париниббана - это покинуть оба берега?
Хотя мне кажется, что это просто метафоры, принципиально на понимание 4БИ не влияет, с уважением.
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#5 ankle » 10.12.2015, 16:05

Кхеминда писал(а):«Ничем не владеющий, ничего не желающий в этом мире желания,
Совершенный брахмана переплывёт поток,
Преодолеет его стремительность; неколеблемый, успокоенный,
Он причалит к иному берегу;
Ниббана,непоколебимый,успокоенный это об архате так говорят)
Кхеминда писал(а):Тот монах покидает оба берега,
Как змея свою отжившую кожу.
Мирские и небесные путы :) Анагамин и архат,один освободился от этого мира,но еще предстоит полное освобождение,другой же свободен теперь и здесь)
Падению предшествует надменность
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#6 saniaoi » 10.12.2015, 18:26

Кхеминда писал(а):Тот монах покидает оба берега, Как змея свою отжившую кожу. СНП 1.1
А теперь внимание вопрос на иной берег или все таки покинуть оба берега необходимо?
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
The monk who subdues his arisen anger as, with herbs, snake-venom once it has spread, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who has cut off passion without leaving a trace, as he would plunging into a lake, a lotus, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who has cut off craving without leaving a trace, as if he had dried up a swift-flowing stream, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who has demolished conceit without leaving a trace, as a great flood, a very weak bridge made of reeds, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk seeing in states of becoming no essence, as he would, when surveying a fig tree, no flowers, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk with no inner anger, who has thus gone beyond becoming & not-, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk whose discursive thoughts are dispersed, well-dealt with inside without leaving a trace, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, transcending all this objectification, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, knowing with regard to the world that "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, without greed, as "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, without aversion, as "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who hasn't slipped past or turned back, without delusion, as "All this is unreal," sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk in whom there are no obsessions — the roots of unskillfulness totally destroyed — sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk in whom there's nothing born of distress that would lead him back to this shore, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk in whom there's nothing born of desire that would keep him bound to becoming, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin.
The monk who's abandoned five hindrances, who, untroubled, unwounded, has crossed over doubt, sloughs off the near shore & far — as a snake, its decrepit old skin

Nyanaponika Thera
He who can curb his wrath as soon as it arises, as a timely antidote will check snake's venom that so quickly spreads, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who entirely cuts off his lust as entering a pond one uproots lotus plants, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who entirely cuts off his craving by drying up its fierce and rapid flow, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who entirely blots out conceit as the wind demolishes a fragile bamboo bridge, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who bears no grudges in his heart, transcending all this "thus" and "otherwise," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who has burned out his evil thoughts, entirely cut them off within his heart, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as the serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, entirely transcending the diffuseness of the world, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, greedless he knows: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, lust-free he knows: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, hate-free he knows: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who neither goes too far nor lags behind, delusion-free he knows: "This is all unreal," — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who has no dormant tendencies whatever, whose unwholesome roots have been expunged, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
States born of anxiety he harbors none which may condition his return to earth, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
States born of attachment he harbors none which cause his bondage to existence, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.
He who has the five hindrances discarded, doubt-free and serene, and free of inner barbs, — such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin.

точнее можете подсказать из какой строки ваш текст.
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#7 SV » 10.12.2015, 19:14

А теперь внимание вопрос на иной берег или все таки покинуть оба берега необходимо?

Тот, кто болото пересечь сумел всё,
Всё заблуждение, сансару всю, трясину,
И этим самым перешёл на берег дальний;
Кто медитирует и пребывает в джханах,
Смущений, колебаний не имеет,
Достиг ниббаны, так как нет цепляний,
Того «брахманом» называю я.

http://www.theravada.ru/Teaching/Canon/Suttanta/Texts/mn98-vasettha-sutta-sv.htm
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