Реальные плоды медитации

Список форумов Теория и практика ПОЛЕМИКА

Описание: Полемика и споры на любые темы, касающиеся буддизма.

#21 Nwad » 15.07.2019, 11:14

Весь толк интересный но 30 минуты до конца идёт чёткр по теме, кому интересно, советую.

https://youtu.be/ID4V8eAlVnI
Отвечаю лишь на вопросы нуждающиеся в ответе. С меттой _/\_
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#22 Топпер » 15.07.2019, 13:03

SV писал(а):Мгновенная джхана это всё равно что нет джханы. Особенно если ты в этой "мгновенной джхане" годами сидишь - очевидно это самообман и не более того.
О чём и речь.
Я допускаю феномен быстрого входа-выхода из джханы, её такую неустойчивость - но на крайне коротком периоде практики, после которого должен появиться просто гигатонный заряд энтузиазма и рванья рубах, которые очень быстро приведут к джхане постоянной, а там и ко второй и так далее.
В пример тут Будду приводят. У него то, наверное, джхана действительно почти мгновенной была. Но то - Будда.
А в контексте нашей темы обсуждения такие мгновенные джханы по 30 штук за час со входами/выходами внешне будут выглядеть совершенно также, как ёрзание плохо сидящего в медитации новичка. И по сути объективных отличий не будет. А речь в теме именно об объективных.
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#23 Топпер » 15.07.2019, 13:04

Nwad писал(а):Весь толк интересный но 30 минуты до конца идёт чёткр по теме, кому интересно, советую.

https://youtu.be/ID4V8eAlVnI
Странно как-то и спикер и остальные монахи одеты: без чивар и в розоватых подрясниках с горчичными ангсами.
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#24 артур гуахо » 15.07.2019, 13:07

Всем,кто стремится к джханам нужно оч.хорошо понять и разобраться для чего им это надо,что хотят в итоге.В этом вопросе необходима полнейшая ясность.потому как это не шутки развлекухи,а ваша жизнь.
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#25 SV » 15.07.2019, 13:46

В пример тут Будду приводят. У него то, наверное, джхана действительно почти мгновенной была. Но то - Будда.

У мастера медитации вполне может быть умение войти на 1 сек., наверное, должно быть. Но, главное, точно также должно быть и умение отсидеть в ней пару-тройку дней подряд.
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#26 Топпер » 15.07.2019, 13:55

SV писал(а):У мастера медитации вполне может быть умение войти на 1 сек., наверное, должно быть. Но, главное, точно также должно быть и умение отсидеть в ней пару-тройку дней подряд.
А тут обычно говорят то-то типа: "а зачем мастеру сидеть днями, если он за пару секунд способен войти?" Дескать вошёл по мере надобности, все дела в джхане поделал, а потом вышел :shy:
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#27 Ringelblume » 15.07.2019, 14:43

я просто чувствую сам посыл- не практикуй и даже не пытайся. Охрану дверей чувств может и не доведёт мирянин до совершенства, не знаю ...нет такого опыта.
но...не практикуя охрану дверей чувств, даже с панча сила будет любой всеми ветрами мотаем аки щепка.
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#28 Топпер » 15.07.2019, 14:46

Ringelblume писал(а):не практикуя охрану дверей чувств, даже с панча сила будет любой всеми ветрами мотаем аки щеп
Она и так будет таковой.
Примеров когда даже серьёзные монахи, после 15 - 20 лет практики размонашивались и начинали вести своершенно мирской образ жизни - масса.
В пике возьмём аджана Гавесако, размонашевшегося через 38 лет практики в лесном (!) монастыре основанном аджаном Чаа (!) и "работающим" по его методике.
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#29 Ringelblume » 15.07.2019, 15:11

Топпер писал(а):возьмём аджана Гавесако

Решил сбавить темп....лучше иногда притормозить, чем сорвать резьбу.
насчёт правильных усилий: каждый нормальный ,развивающий себя человек , наверно будет желать, чтобы плохие явления его ума менялись на хорошие.
а Будда даже рассказывает как это делать.
Бханте, Вы можете мои рассуждения о усилиях перенести сразу в мою тему с вопросами.
наберусь наглости продолжу там. К теме данной это отношение не имеет.
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#30 Топпер » 15.07.2019, 15:52

Ringelblume писал(а):Решил сбавить темп....лучше иногда притормозить, чем сорвать резьбу.
Ну да. Женился человек после 38 лет борьбы с чувственными желаниями. Что тут такого?
Показатель это успешной борьбы с этими желаниями или нет?
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#31 артур гуахо » 15.07.2019, 16:11

38лет,круто но честно,вот как представишь себе,что всё сделанное за эти годы слито ради сокращения стенки влагалища,то понимаешь,у жизни есть чувство юмора!
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#32 Ringelblume » 15.07.2019, 16:49

артур гуахо писал(а):ради сокращения стенки влагалища,то понимаешь,у жизни есть чувство юмора!

Жажда- механизм направленный для выживания вида и передачи генов дальше. И не только явно в половых вопросах.
Юмора в этом ровно ноль...скорее жестяк
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#33 артур гуахо » 15.07.2019, 19:08

Назовите как вам нравится,может это новомодный танец исчезающих в дали Гармашей,или день сурка,суть не меняется.
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#34 Olivin » 15.07.2019, 20:34

Ringelblume писал(а):Жажда- механизм направленный для выживания вида и передачи генов дальше.
Да. Чтобы переданные гены обеспечили дальнейший круговорот в сансаре. :yes:
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#35 Nwad » 15.07.2019, 21:08

http://forestdhammatalks.org/en/books/Forest Leaves - Ajahn Martin Piyadhammo.pdf

Shutting down
the mind engine

5th October 2007
You really must get the mind calm, get into that calm state where
the mind completely shuts down. If you are always in a room where
an engine is running, you get used to the noise and stop hearing
it after a while. It’s when the engine is turned off that you know
the difference. When the mind engine is completely shut down,
what is left is a preview of Nibbãna. When the mind completely
stops working, it’s an amazing state and one that you won’t forget
for your whole life. It’s called appanã samãdhi, the deep state of
samãdhi, and it gives the utmost rest. But if you don’t put all your
effort and determination into keeping your attention on the one
point – either the breath at the nose or the mental repetition of the
word buddho – you will not attain it, I promise you. If you keep
your attention on the one point and are not willing to let the mind
wander from the “hook” of the meditation object, you will enter
the deep state of samãdhi.

Скрытый текст
Reaching appanã samãdhi is worthwhile because it gives
us a preview of Nibbãna; Than Ajahn Mahã Bua called “it the
Nibbãna of the little man”, as it can be reached by anyone who
puts in enough determination and effort. It’s not beyond our abil-
ities, so please don’t think it is. The kilesas tell us what we should
or shouldn’t do but, in fact, we can do whatever we want. The citta
has abilities that are unlimited, but we ourselves limit its abilities.
Please understand this. We cling to the things that we think we
know, not letting go, not letting go of the body, feelings, thoughts,
memories or consciousness that make up the five khandhas. We
cling to this view or that opinion, and we cling to a past that has
gone and a future that has not yet arisen. Isn’t this strange? We
think that we know these things so we cling to them and are afraid
of the unknown. This is why the kilesas will not let us get into
appanã samãdhi; they are afraid of the unknown but, in fact, the
unknown is our true home.
Avijjã can be translated as “not knowing”; it’s the master of wan-
ting to know, yet it is completely afraid of the unknown. It wants
to know, but is not able to know in line with the truth. It wants to
understand everything and to stay with everything it knows or
thinks it knows. But avijjã cannot stay with the unknown, and it is
terribly afraid of the unknown because that is where it vanishes.
Avijjã vanishes when we have sati (awareness) or if the mind is
one-pointed on a meditation object. The kilesas have no power
over us there. Please understand this clearly; if we are completely
absorbed into one object, whether the object of investigation or
the object of calm meditation, the kilesas have no power over us.
But the moment we realise that something is pulling our citta away
from the object, we see the power of the kilesas. So, the task is
very simple – just stay with one object and put all your deter-
mination into doing so. Think about it; why do you want to go
over the past yet again? We’ve thought about the past so many
times before, but what benefit has it brought us? It’s not lasting,
it’s anicca. Everything is anicca, arising and ceasing – feelings,
thoughts, memories, all of them are anicca. Most of the time we
cannot even control what arises and ceases. Thoughts just pop
up out of the blue and disappear of their own accord, as do
feelings and even consciousness (viññãõa) itself. Things pop up
and disappear all the time, but we cling to them because of the
power of avijjã which wants to know and wants to understand but
will never be able to do so. The only thing that can really know or
understand is the citta, but we have to get rid of avijjã before we
can access that state of knowingness. We have to pull away the
curtain of avijjã, the thick curtain that is before our eyes all the
time. Please understand this clearly. There is something going on
behind the curtain, but we see only shadows, as if we are looking
at the dance of shadow puppets. From the shadows, we assume
what is going on, but once we pull aside the curtain of avijjã, we
can clearly see what is really happening. We don’t have to assume
any more; we simply see in line with the truth, and what we see
is completely different from what we could infer through the thick
curtain of avijjã, the curtain of not-knowingness. Please realise
that everything that comes into your senses, every thought, every
view and every opinion is wrong. As close as they might be to the
truth, they are still wrong. So let them go and just stay with the one
object, seeing it and understanding it with your true citta.
However, your experience tells you that meditation practice is
very difficult, because things pop into the mind saying, “This is
important; this must be done; I am right; I am wrong”, and so on.
This is where all the problems start, but you must not give in to
them. If you don’t give in to the memories, if you don’t give in to
the thoughts, if you don’t give in to your views and opinions they
must disappear, and what is left is an extremely peaceful state of
mind because the thoughts, feeling and memories have ceased to
bother you constantly. The same applies to the body; the older
we get the more the body bothers us, but we shouldn’t give in
to concerns about the body either. Once we get close to entering
appanã samãdhi, the citta will mostly stay inside. It will wriggle
around inside, still trying to get out, but if we can overcome this
hindrance, we can actually enter appanã samadhi. It’s like going
through a tunnel and ending up in an utterly peaceful state that
we will never forget. Once you come out of that state, you say,
“Aaahhhhh.” Than Ajahn Mahã Bua called it a wonder, a wonder
that we can all experience when we do the meditation practice.
It’s the first wonder of meditation. There are quite a few wonders
– another occurs during the investigation of pain – but attaining
appanã samãdhi is one of the wonders we can experience most
easily, and everyone can do it.
Don’t let the kilesas fool you into thinking that you can’t, that
you can’t enter appanã samãdhi because you are a Westerner or
for some other reason. That’s wrong view. Of course, you can
enter appanã samãdhi – I could do it and so can you. It’s not so
difficult, nor is it as difficult as we think. Not only does it give rise
to an enormously peaceful state of mind but it also results in a lot
of energy which we can use for investigation. In addition, it gives
us a preview of Nibbãna, thereby fostering our faith and proving
that there is something beyond all the things we see, hear, touch,
taste or smell. It is an experience more amazing than any other in
the whole world. The conviction we obtain from the experience of
the deep state of samãdhi helps us go through all the difficulties on
the spiritual path, whether during investigation or when removing
the kilesas. The faith or conviction we obtain, even if the expe-
rience only happens once, can be the engine that pulls us through
all the problems that arise in meditation practice. We remember
the experience of being absolutely calm as the mind engine was
completely shut down without any noise at all, and we never forget
it. But to reach this state, we have to resist the power of the kilesas,
the soldiers of avijjã, which bring up thoughts of lust or anger, or
memories of various things, or thoughts about the future. We have
to resist such thoughts, not give in to thinking; when they arise, we
have to let them pass by, say goodbye and go back to the object,
say goodbye and go back to the object of meditation, again and
again. Don’t allow these thoughts to obsess your heart, and don’t
dwell on them or wonder why a particular thought came up – you
can think about that for the rest of your life and never find an
answer. Thoughts and memories just arise and cease; simply be
aware that anicca is their nature.
Memory, feelings and the body are also not-self; as the Lord
Buddha pointed out in the teaching of anattã, “These things are
not me, they do not belong to me, they are not myself.” And
because we cling or attach to them and think they are me or mine,
dukkha arises. It also arises when we try to get rid of things, clin-
ging to them in a negative way, not wanting them to be me or
mine. For instance, if anger arises, we don’t want it to be me or
mine but we still cling to it; this is wrong understanding, so just let
it pass by. Recognising that lust or anger are not me or mine, we
let them pass by, neither going for them nor going against them.
Understand this clearly; if you foster a thought of hate or some kind
of not-wanting, it will become a big problem. Just as an avalanche
is built up from the first stone or the first snowball, so the first
thought of hate or dislike can, if fostered, become an avalanche
of emotion that destroys us. We need to be aware of the process
that leads to the avalanche, and that avalanches can be stopped
at the very beginning, if we are to prevent the development of
tides of emotion that we cannot deal with. The way to stop the
avalanche at the beginning is to recognise that the initial thought
is not me, doesn’t belong to me and is not myself, and that having
arisen it must cease. Don’t buy into it, and don’t attach to it either
by liking or disliking. This is what makes us free of dukkha. Please
understand this clearly and understand it in your heart. I know this
practice is difficult, but one has to bring up some determination
and effort to throw out all the thoughts.
Imagine that you are a security guard in an art gallery, and
that your task is simply to watch who comes in and goes out the
door. You don’t follow the people going in or going out. Similarly,
in meditation practice you don’t follow the things that arise in the
citta nor do you latch onto them. Your task is just to recognise that
a thought has arisen and a thought has passed by, vedanã (feeling)
has arisen and vedanã has passed by, and so on. This is the job
of the security guard; he is not paid to follow particular people,
because he would miss all the other people coming into the gal-
lery. His job is just to stay at the door and take note of whoever is
coming in or going out. So, in the practice, just be with whatever
arises and ceases, just know and stay with the meditation object,
such as the word buddho. If it becomes boring, you can play a little
trick – get interested in it. Think of something you have been pre-
viously been interested in and put this interest into the meditation
object. It doesn’t matter what the previous interest was. People
who are fond of mountain climbing or motor racing get completely
absorbed because of the danger that lurks in the background, but
when we are on our meditation cushions or doing walking medi-
tation there is no danger, so we get complacent and become less
attentive to our task. So, become attentive. Feel that you want to
understand the meditation object, such as the word buddho; don’t
just formally repeat it but really try to understand its quality, how
it changes from moment to moment. Similarly with the breath;
we need to understand its quality, how it changes from moment
to moment. We’re not interested in whether we have practiced
for five minutes or ten minutes, we’re just interested in this one
moment, this one buddho or this one breath. We need to be there
in the present, with our full attention on the one object. Then, the
knowingness of the citta will know about the quality of the buddho
or the breath, and we won’t have to think about the quality of the
object. We just have to be attentive, and the knowing will arise.
Please understand this. Get there. Don’t buy into thoughts.
Once you have been in the monastery for a while, don’t bother
about what other people are doing. Let them do their thing and
you do your thing; don’t get disturbed by other people but rather
live as if you were living alone. You can’t blame the trees or the
animals for your own dissatisfaction, you can only blame yourself.
Everything you need to deal with is already inside you. If that
wasn’t the case, we would be lost, and the Lord Buddha would
never have been able to point the way out of dukkha. So let’s take
control of ourselves, not in the sense of controlling the breath or
the word buddho but in taking control to stop the kilesas coming in
to disturb our hearts. A person who owns an apartment has con-
trol over who comes in; he can close the door or open the door,
and this is the kind of control I mean. Once they are in, however,
we can’t control how they behave. In the world we can’t control
other people or situations, and we cannot control our environ-
ment; the environment is just what it is, and other people are just
what they are. But we can take charge of what happens within us.
You need to understand this. While living in this monastery,
your thoughts should not be concerned with what other people
are doing or how they are behaving. When Than Ajahn Mahã Bua
received complaints from a bhikkhu about another bhikkhu misbe-
having, he would either kick out the bhikkhu who had complained
(if the other bhikkhu’s misbehaviour was not serious) or kick them
both out (if the other bhikkhu really had misbehaved badly). This
was because he didn’t want us to complain about other people
or situations but rather to deal with situations that arise within
our own heart, not to find scapegoats for them. We have blamed
others for our negative feelings all our lives, but now it has to stop.
We shouldn’t look for scapegoats for our unpleasant feelings, and
nor should we find targets for our pleasant feelings. If we do, we
will not be able to stay with the feeling itself to see its arising and
ceasing, because when a good or pleasant feeling arises, we imme-
diately wonder how we got it, how can we prolong it and how can
we get it again in the future. Similarly, when an unpleasant feeling
arises we immediately look for a scapegoat, such as someone who
looked at us in a strange way, or the bad weather or the quality
of the food. With both unpleasant and pleasant feelings, we usu-
ally look around for reasons why they have arisen, but we should
instead just accept that they arise and cease. This is the first step.
Before we start our investigation, we have to accept, accept both
the good things within us and the bad. This doesn’t mean that we
go on doing the bad and neglect doing the good, but simply that
we should accept that both good and bad are within the range of
the heart. We have to take stock of what is in our hearts, otherwise
how do we know what is there and what to get rid of? It’s like a
merchant who has goods that are stinking and rotten but is unable
to identify the rotten ones because he hasn’t made an inventory
of his stock. Instead, he blames his neighbour for the rotten smell
that comes from his own merchandise. We need to take stock of
what is in our hearts; accept the good things, go on doing them
and do more of them, and accept the bad things and resolve not
to do them again. This is how we can slowly change our ways of
behaviour to become more and more content and happy. If we
start doing it now, we can experience a more satisfying life within
a few years and, of course, have a better rebirth in the future.
However, doing these things alone will not eradicate the under-
lying causes for our greed, hate and delusion – they will just reduce
it a little. If we want to get rid of our unwholesome tendencies, we
have to tread the eightfold path that consists of three columns: sïla,
samãdhi and paññã. For laypeople, keeping sïla means keeping
the five precepts, and for the monks it means keeping the two
hundred and twenty-seven monastic rules. Samãdhi is the ability
to concentrate on one object and stay with it without the citta run-
ning around like a monkey jumping from tree to tree reaching for
this or that banana. Samãdhi also provides rest. People who work
a lot need to rest in the evening and put their bodies to sleep,
and similarly we have to be able to put our minds to sleep. You
rest your body every day, but when have you ever rested your
citta? When was the last time you went into deep samãdhi or at
least upacãra samãdhi, where the citta is rested and untroubled by
external things? We need the ability to concentrate to get such rest.
Paññã is investigation, and it is only through investigation that we
can cut the roots of the tree of life, the tree of rebirth. This kind of
investigation does not try to reach conclusions. Rather, it leads to
insight, which takes place in the heart, in the knowingness of the
citta which is its true state, not in thoughts. Once we get a quiet
moment, we go into that knowingness of the citta and start investi-
gating. We investigate things over and over and over again. When
we first come to the monastery, we start with the investigation of
the body. We tear the body apart, from top to bottom, from out-
side to inside. We break it into bits and pieces, detailed or coarse,
to see and understand the nature of the body. As long as the heart
has not understood the nature of the body, it will not let go. The
heart is the only thing that can let go, not our minds.
It is possible, by controlling our minds, to let go of unwhole-
some things and develop wholesomeness. This kind of “letting go”
can be compared to cutting the leaves of a tree. If it is a large tree
with lots of leaves, we can’t see what is underneath the foliage, but
when we cut off the leaves the trunk and branches become clearer.
Control of mind is a way of pruning back and removing the leaves.
However, trees grow back their leaves over and over again, so we
have to keep cutting them back over and over again. I hope you
can see that these efforts are ultimately useless, as the capacity
of the tree to regrow is left untouched. Similarly, the underlying
causes of the unwholesomeness in our hearts are untouched by
simply controlling the mind, by “letting go” alone. The practice of
not following our desires is equivalent to cutting the leaves. The
leaves have to be cut, but that is all we will achieve unless we prac-
tice investigation. Once there are no more leaves, investigation
allows us to see the branches which give rise to new leaves. The
heart can then cut the branches off one by one until the whole tree
of rebirth is uprooted.
We can think about “letting go”, letting go of our greed and
hate for the rest of our lives, but it will not change anything; greed
and hate will still reside within our hearts. Only if we understand
the nature of the pot of earth that supports the plant of greed and
hate, can we destroy it. When the plant pot is completely destroyed,
greed and hate cannot grow any more. And this plant pot is none
other than the body. The body has to be completely understood,
stripped down to its bits and pieces and into the four elements,
over and over again. Once we really see it clearly with our inner
eyes, with our citta, understanding will arise. Then, the citta will
know the danger of the body and will let go of its own accord. We
do not have to tell it to let go; once the citta understands the true
nature of the body or feeling, it will let go of it immediately, just
like a little child touching fire and immediately retracting its hand.
Day in and day out, moment by moment, are we touching the
fire, and that’s why we have so much dukkha. So, at first, we have
to develop concentration. Investigation is not very worthwhile if
the mind cannot concentrate on one object. You need to be able
to stay with one object for at least ten or fifteen minutes, other-
wise your investigation will just revolve around in saññã (memory
and association) and sankhãra (thoughts). If saññã and sankhãra
helped us reach the end of dukkha, we wouldn’t need to come to
this monastery and go through all the hardships of practice. The
solution is not to be found in our memories and thoughts. It is to
make our hearts empty and see things as they are. We cannot
force the heart to let go, the heart lets go of its own accord!
Отвечаю лишь на вопросы нуждающиеся в ответе. С меттой _/\_
Nwad
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#36 SV » 15.07.2019, 22:55

Nwad, Не надо пожалуйста спамить.
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#37 Nwad » 16.07.2019, 04:33

Всё чётко по темам. Посмотрите/почитайте.
Отвечаю лишь на вопросы нуждающиеся в ответе. С меттой _/\_
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#38 whateverpal » 16.07.2019, 14:26

Складывается впечатление, что у товарищей лесных аджанов присутствует нездоровая фиксация на некоей читте.

Например, описание взглядов аджана Маха Буа из википедии:

Bua observes the essential enduring truth of the sentient being as constituted of the indestructible reality of the citta (heart/mind), which is characterized by the attribute of Awareness or Knowingness. This citta, which is intrinsically bright, clear, and Aware, gets superficially tangled up in samsara but ultimately cannot be destroyed by any samsaric phenomenon. Although Bua is often at pains to emphasise the need for meditation upon the non-Self (anatta), he also points out that the citta, while getting caught up in the vortex of conditioned phenomena, is not subject to destruction as are those things which are impermanent, suffering, and non-Self

Грустно это все. Учение Будды прекрасно тем, что не постулируется никаких ни личных, ни вселенских душ, ни вечных умов и сознаний, а тут, надо же, indestructible reality of citta.
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#39 Nwad » 16.07.2019, 14:55

Можно ли разрушить дырку от бублика?
Куда уходит дырка после съедения бублика?
Каков звук одной хлопающей ладони?
...

Чтобы понять о чём идёт речь нужно отбрасывать всё то что непостоянно, обусловленно, сфабрикованно, сложно, наблюдая за всем этим как за не мной, моим, тем что я есть. Отбрасывая таким образом однажды ум упадёт на дно открыв для себя другой берег, то что непроницаемо, неизменьчего, чисто, непоколебимо, вне власти Мары, то в чём берут Прибежище.
Отвечаю лишь на вопросы нуждающиеся в ответе. С меттой _/\_
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#40 whateverpal » 16.07.2019, 15:16

Ну и как, Nwad, поняли ли вы "куда уходит дырка после съедения бублика", отбросив "обусловленное, сфабрикованное, непостоянное"? Нашли indestructible reality of chitta, о которой говорил товарищ лесной аджан?
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